‘Venerable Nāgasena, which is the more powerful, virtue or vice?’

‘Virtue, O king.’

‘That is a saying, Nāgasena, which I cannot believe-that virtue is more powerful than vice. For there are to be seen here (in the world) men who destroy living creatures, who take to themselves what has not been given, who walk in evil in their lusts, who speak lies, who commit gang robberies on whole villages, who are highwaymen, sharpers, and swindlers, and these all according to their crime suffer the cutting off of their hands, or their feet, or their hands and feet, or their ears, or Their nose, or their ears and nose, or the Gruel Pot, or the Chank Crown, or the Rāhu’s Mouth, or the Fire Garland, or the Hand Torch, or the Snake Strips, or the Bark Dress, or the Spotted Antelope, or the Flesh Hooks, or the Penny Cuts, or the Brine Slits, or the Bar Turn, or the Straw Seat, or they are anointed with boiling oil, or eaten by dogs, or are impaled alive, or are beheaded with a sword. Some of them sin one night and that night experience the fruit of their sin, some sinning by night experience the next day, some sinning one day experience that day, some sinning by day experience that night, some experience when two days or three have elapsed. But all experience in this present visible world the result of their iniquity. And is there any one, Nāgasena, who from having provided a meal with all its accessories for one, or two, or three, or four, or five, or ten, or a hundred, or a thousand (members of the Order), has enjoyed in this present visible world wealth or fame or happiness—(is there any one who) from righteousness of life, or from observance of the Uposatha, (has received bliss even in this life)?’

‘There are , O king, four men who by giving gifts, and by the practice of uprightness, and by the keeping of Uposatha, even in their earthly bodies attained to glory in Tidasapura (the city of the gods).’

‘And who, Sir, were they ?’

‘Mandhātā the king, and Nimi the king, and Sādhīna the king, and Guttila the musician.’

‘Venerable Nāgasena, this happened thousands of births ago, and is beyond the ken of either of us two. Give me, if you can, some examples from that period (of the world) which is now elapsing in which the Blessed One has been alive.’

‘In this present period, O king, the slave Puṇṇaka, on giving a meal to Sāriputta the Elder, attained that day to the dignity of a treasurer (Seṭṭhi), and he is now generally known as Puṇṇaka the Seṭṭhi. The queen, the mother of Gopāla, who (being the daughter of poor peasant folk) sold her hair for eight pennies, and therewith gave a meal to Mahā Kaccāyana the Elder and his seven companions, became that very day the chief queen of king Udena. Suppiyā, the believing woman, cut flesh from her own thigh to provide broth for a sick Bhikkhu, and on the very next day the wound closed up, and the place became cured, with skin grown over it. Mallikā, the queen who (when a poor flower girl) gave the last night’s gruel (she had reserved for her own dinner) to the Blessed One, became that very day the chief queen of the king of Kosala. Sumana, the garland maker, when he had presented to the Blessed One eight bunches of jessamine flowers, came that very day into great prosperity. Eka-sāṭaka the Brahman, who gave to the Blessed One his only garment, received that very day the office of Sabbaṭṭhaka (Minister in general). All these, O king, came into the enjoyment of wealth and glory in their then existing lives.’

‘So then, Nāgasena, with all your searching and enquiry you have only found six cases ?’

‘That is so, O king.’

‘Then it is vice, Nāgasena, and not virtue which is the more powerful. For on one day alone I have seen ten men expiating their crimes by being impaled alive, and thirty even, and forty, and fifty, , and a hundred, and a thousand. And further, there was Bhaddasāla, the soldier in the service of the royal family of Nanda, and he waged war against king candagutta. Now in that war, Nāgasena, there were eighty Corpse Dances. For they say that when one great Head Holocaust has taken place (by which is meant the slaughter of ten thousand elephants, and a lac of horses, and five thousand charioteers, and a hundred koṭis of soldiers on foot), then the headless corpses arise and dance in frenzy over the battle-field. And all the men thus slain came to destruction through the fruit of the Karma of their evil deeds. And therefore, too, do I say, Nāgasena, that vice is more powerful than virtue. And have you heard, Nāgasena, that in all this dispensation (since the time of Gotama the Buddha) the giving by the Kosala king has been unequalled?’

‘Yes, I have heard so, O king.’

‘But did he, Nāgasena, on account of his having given gifts so unequalled, receive in this present life wealth, or glory, or happiness?’

‘No, O king, he did not.’

‘Then, in that case, surely, Nāgasena, vice is more powerful than virtue?’

‘Vice, O king, by reason of its meanness, dies quickly away. But virtue, by reason of its grandeur, takes a long time to die. And this can be further examined into by a metaphor. just, O king, as in the West Country the kind of corn called Kumuda-bhaṇḍikā, ripening quickly and being garnered in a month, is called Māsalu (got in a month), but the rices only come to perfection in six months or five. What then is the difference, what the distinction herein between Kumuda-bhaṇḍikā and rice?

‘The one is a mean plant, Sir, the other a grand one. The rices are worthy of kings, meet for The king’s table; the other is the food of servants and of slaves.

‘Just so, O king, it is by reason of its meanness that vice dies quickly away. But virtue, by its grandeur, takes a long time to die.’

‘But, Nāgasena, it is just those things which come most quickly to their end which are in the world considered the most powerful. And so still vice must be the more powerful, not virtue. just, Nāgasena, as the strong man who, when he enters into a terrible battle, is able the most quickly to get hold of his enemies’ heads under his armpit, and dragging them along to bring them prisoners to his lord, that is the champion who is regarded, in the world, as the ablest hero—just as that surgeon who is able the most quickly to extract the dart, and allay the disease, is considered the most clever—just as the accountant who is able with the greatest speed to make his calculations, and with most rapidity to show the result, is considered the cleverest counter—just as the wrestler who is able the most quickly to lift his opponent up, and make him fall flat on his back, is considered the ablest hero—just so, Nāgasena, it is that one of these two things—virtue and vice—which most quickly reaches its end that is, in the world, the more powerful of the two.’

‘The Karma of both the two, O king, will be made evident in future births; but vice besides that will by reason of its guilt be made evident at once, and in this present life. The rulers (Kshatriyas) of old, O king, established this decree: “Whosoever takes life shall be subject to a fine, and whosoever takes to himself what has not been given, and whosoever commits adultery,, and whosoever speaks lies, and whosoever is a dacoit, and whosoever is a highwayman, and whosoever cheats and swindles. Such men shall be liable to be fined or beaten or mutilated or broken or executed.” And in pursuance thereof they held repeated enquiry, and then adjudged one or other punishment accordingly. But, O king, has there ever been by any one a decree promulgated: “Whosoever gives gifts, or observes a virtuous life, or keeps Uposatha, to him shall wealth be given, or honours?” And do they make continued enquiry, and bestow wealth or honours accordingly, as they do stripes or bonds upon a thief?’

‘Certainly not, Sir.’

‘Well, if they did so then would virtue too be made evident even in this life. But as they neither make such enquiry concerning givers, nor bestow wealth and honours upon them, therefore is virtue not manifested now. And this is the reason, O king, why vice is made known in this life, whereas he (the giver) receives the more abundantly in the lives to come. And therefore it is virtue which, through the distinctions brought about by Karma, is by far the more powerful of the two.’

‘Very good, Nāgasena! Only by one wise as you could this puzzle have been so well solved. the problem put by me in worldly sense have you in transcendental sense made clear.’

Here ends the dilemma as to virtue and vice.