‘Venerable Nāgasena, how is it? Is Nirvāṇa all bliss, or is it partly pain. ?

‘Nirvāṇa is all bliss, O king. There is no intermingling of pain in it.’

‘That, Sir, is a saying we cannot believe—that Nirvāṇa is all bliss. On this point, Nāgasena, we maintain that Nirvāṇa must be alloyed with pain. And there is a reason for our adopting that view. What is that reason? Those, Nāgasena, who seek after Nirvāṇa are seen to practise exertion and application both of body and of mind, restraint in standing, walking, sitting, lying, and eating, suppression of sleep, subjugation of the organs of sense, renunciation of wealth and corn, of dear relatives and friends. But all those who are joyful and happy in the world take delight in, are devoted to, the five pleasures of sense—they practise and delight their eyes in many kinds of pleasurable forms, such as at any time they like the best—they practise and delight their ears in many kinds of pleasurable sounds of revelry and song, such as at any time they like the best—they practise and delight their sense of smell with many kinds of perfumes of flowers, and fruits, and leaves, and bark, and roots, and sap, such as at any time they like the best—they practise and delight their tongue with many kinds of pleasurable tastes of hard foods and of soft, of syrups, drinks, and beverages, such as at any time they like the best—they practise and delight their sense of touch with many kinds of pleasurable feelings, tender and delicate, exquisite and soft, such as at any time they like the best—they practise and delight their minds with many sorts of conceptions and ideas, pure and impure, good and bad, such as at any time they like the best. You, on the other hand, put a stop to and destroy, maim and mangle, put a drag on and restrain the development of your eye, and ear, and nose, and tongue, and body, and mind. Therefore is your body afflicted and your mind afflicted too, and your body being afflicted you feel bodily discomfort and pain, and your minds being afflicted you feel mental discomfort too and pain. Did not even Māgandiya, the ascetic, find fault with the Blessed One, and say: “The Samaṇa Gotama is a destroyer of increase ?”’

‘Nirvāṇa, O king, has no pain in it. It is bliss unalloyed. When you, O king, maintain that Nirvāṇa is painful, that which you call “painful” is not Nirvāṇa. It is the preliminary stage to the realisation of Nirvāṇa, it is the process of seeking after Nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa itself is bliss pure and simple, there is no pain mixed with it. And I will give you an explanation of this. Is there such a thing, O king, as the bliss of sovranty which kings enjoy?’

‘Most certainly.’

‘And is there no pain, O king, mingled with that bliss?’

‘No, Sir.’

‘But surely then, O king, why is it that when their frontier provinces have broken out in revolt, the kings, to the end that they may bring the inhabitants of those provinces into subjection again, leave their homes, attended by their ministers and chiefs, their soldiers and their guards, and marching over ground even and uneven, tormented the while by gnats and mosquitoes and hot winds, engage in fierce fights, and suffer the presentiment of death?’

‘That, venerable Nāgasena, is not what is called the bliss of sovranty. It is only the preliminary stage in the pursuit of that bliss. It is after they have thus, in pain, sought after sovranty, that they enjoy the bliss thereof. And thus that bliss, Nāgasena, is itself unmixed with pain, for the bliss of sovranty is one thing, and the pain another.’

‘Just so, O king, is Nirvāṇa all bliss, and there is no pain mingled with it. Those who are in quest of Nirvāṇa afflict their minds and bodies it is true, restrain themselves in standing, walking, sitting, lying, and in food, suppress their sleep, keep their senses in subjection, abandon their very body and their life. But it is after they have thus, in pain, sought after Nirvāṇa, that they enjoy the Nirvāṇa which is bliss unalloyed—as kings do the bliss of sovranty after their foes have been put down. Thus is it, O king, that Nirvāṇa is all bliss, and there is no pain mingled with it. For Nirvāṇa is one thing, and the pain another.

‘And hear another explanation, O king, of the same thing. Is there such a thing, O king, as the bliss of knowledge which those teachers have who have passed through their course?’

‘Yes, Sir, there is.’

‘Well, is that bliss of knowledge alloyed with pain?’

‘No.’

‘What then, O king, is the good of their afflicting Themselves by bowing down before and standing up in the presence of their teachers; by drawing water, and sweeping out the cell, and placing tooth-sticks and washing-water ready; by living upon scraps left over; by doing service in shampooing, and bathing, and washing of the feet; by suppressing their own will, and acting according to the will of others; by sleeping in discomfort, and feeding on distasteful food?’

‘That, Nāgasena, is not the bliss of knowledge, it is a preliminary stage in the pursuit thereof. It is after the teachers have, in pain, sought after knowledge, that they enjoy its bliss. Thus is it, Nāgasena, that the bliss of knowledge is unalloyed with pain. For that bliss of knowledge is one thing, and the pain another.’

‘Just so, O king, is Nirvāṇa all bliss, and there is no pain mingled with it. Those who are in quest of Nirvāṇa afflict their minds and bodies it is true, restrain themselves in standing, walking, sitting, lying, and in food, suppress their sleep, keep their senses in subjection, abandon their very body and their life. But it is after they have thus, in pain, sought after Nirvāṇa, that they enjoy the Nirvāṇa which is bliss unalloyed—as teachers do the bliss of knowledge. Thus is it, O king, that Nirvāṇa is all bliss, and there is no pain mingled with it. For Nirvāṇa is one thing, and the pain another.’

‘Very good, Nāgasena! That is so, and I accept it as you say.’

Here ends the dilemma as to the pain of Nirvāṇa.