Setting

Thus have I heard: at one time the Lord, walking on tour among the Kosalans together with a large Order of monks, arrived at the Brahman village of the Kosalans named Sālā. The Brahman householders of Sālā heard: “It is said that the recluse Gotama, the son of the Sakyans, gone forth from the Sakyan family, and walking on tour among the Kosalans, together with a large Order of monks, has reached Sālā, and that a lovely reputation has gone forth about the Lord Gotama thus: ‘The Lord is perfected, wholly Self-awakened, endowed with (right) knowledge and conduct, well-farer, knower of the worlds, incomparable charioteer of men to be tamed, teacher of devas and men, the Awakened One, the Lord. He makes known this world with the devas, with Māra, with Brahmā, creation with its recluses and Brahmans, its devas and men, having realised them by his own super-knowledge. He teaches Dhamma that is lovely at the beginning, lovely in the middle, lovely at the ending, with the spirit and the letter; he proclaims the Brahmā-faring wholly fulfilled, quite purified. It were good to see perfected ones like this.’”

Then the Brahman householders of Sālā approached the Lord; some, having approached, having greeted the Lord, sat down at a respectful distance; some exchanged greetings with the Lord and having conversed in a friendly and courteous way, sat down at a respectful distance; some, having saluted the Lord with joined palms, sat down at a respectful distance; some, having made known their names and clans in the Lord's presence, sat down at a respectful distance; some, becoming silent, sat down at a respectful distance. As they were sitting down at a respectful distance, the Lord spoke thus to the Brahman householders of Sālā: “Have you, householders, some satisfactory teacher in whom your faith is grounded?” “We have no satisfactory teacher, revered sir, in whom our faith is grounded.” “If you, householders, have no satisfactory teacher, then taking up this sure Dhamma you should practise it. For, householders, sure is Dhamma; rightly undertaken, it will long be for your welfare and happiness. And what, householders, is this sure Dhamma?

Without Results

There are, householders, some recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and are of these views: ‘There is no (result of) gift, there is no (result of) offering, no (result of) sacrifice; there is no fruit or ripening of deeds well done or ill done; there is not this world, there is not a world beyond; there is no (benefit from serving) mother or father; there are no spontaneously arising beings; there are not in the world recluses and Brahmans who are faring rightly, proceeding rightly, and who proclaim this world and a world beyond, having realised them by their own super-knowledge.’ But, householders, there are some recluses and Brahmans who speak in direct opposition to these recluses and Brahmans, and who say this: ‘There is (result of) gift, there is (result of) offering, there is (result of) sacrifice; there is fruit and ripening of deeds well done and ill done; there is this world, there is a world beyond; there is (benefit from serving) mother and father; there are spontaneously uprising beings; there are in the world recluses and Brahmans who are faring rightly, proceeding rightly, and who proclaim this world and a world beyond, having realised them by their own super-knowledge.’

What do you think about this, householders? Do not these recluses and Brahmans speak in direct opposition to one another?” “Yes, revered sir.”

“As to this, householders, of those recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and are of these views: ‘There is no (result of) gift… having realised them by their own super-knowledge,’ this is to be expected for them: Having laid aside these three good things: right conduct of body, right conduct of speech, right conduct of thought, and taking up these three bad things: wrong conduct of body, wrong conduct of speech, wrong conduct of thought, they practise them.

What is the reason for this? It is that these worthy recluses and Brahmans do not see the peril in wrong things, the vanity, the defilement, nor the advantage, allied to purity, of renouncing them for the good things. And because there is indeed a world beyond, the view of anyone that there is not a world beyond is a false view of his. As there is indeed a world beyond, if anyone has the conception that there is not a world beyond, it is a false conception of his. As there is indeed a world beyond, if anyone utters the speech: ‘There is not a world beyond,’ it is a false speech of his. As there is indeed a world beyond, if anyone says that there is not a world beyond, he makes mock of those perfected ones who are knowers of a world beyond. As there is indeed a world beyond, if he convinces others that there is not a world beyond, that convincing of his is against true Dhamma, and because of that convincing, which is against true Dhamma, he is exalting himself and disparaging others.

Indeed, before his good morality is got rid of, bad morality is set up. And this false view, false conception, false speech, the mocking of the ariyans, the convincing which is against true Dhamma, the exalting of oneself, the disparaging of others—these are a variety of evil, unskilled states that arise thus because of false view.

Hereupon, householders, an intelligent man reflects thus: ‘If there is not a world beyond, this worthy individual at the breaking up of the body will make himself safe; but if there is a world beyond, this worthy individual at the breaking up of the body after dying, will arise in a sorrowful way, a bad bourn, the downfall, Niraya Hell. But if it be granted that there is not a world beyond, if this is a true speech of these recluses and Brahmans, then the worthy individual is condemned here and now by intelligent persons who say: ‘Of bad moral habit is the individual, of false view, he holds the theory of “There is not”.’ But if there is indeed a world beyond, thus is there defeat in two ways for this worthy individual: inasmuch as he is condemned here and now by intelligent persons, and inasmuch as at the breaking up of the body after dying he will uprise in a sorrowful way, a bad bourn, the downfall, Niraya Hell. Thus this sure Dhamma has been undertaken imperfectly by him, he has applied himself one-sidedly, he is neglecting the skilled stance.

With Results

Hereupon, householders, of those recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and are of these views: ‘There is (result of) gift,… having realised them by their own super-knowledge,’ this is to be expected of them: Having laid aside these three bad things: wrong conduct of body, wrong conduct of speech, wrong conduct of thought, and taking up these three good things: right conduct of body, right conduct of speech, right conduct of thought, they practise them.

What is the reason for this? It is that these worthy recluses and Brahmans see the peril, the vanity, the defilement in wrong things, and the advantage, allied to purity, of renouncing them for states that are good. And because there is indeed a world beyond, the view of anyone that there is a world beyond is a right view of his. As there is indeed a world beyond, if anyone has the conception that there is a world beyond it is a right conception of his. As there is indeed a world beyond, if anyone utters the speech: ‘There is a world beyond,’ it is a right speech of his. As there is indeed a world beyond, if anyone says that there is a world beyond, he does not make mock of those perfected ones who are knowers of the world beyond. As there is indeed a world beyond, if he convinces others that there is a world beyond, that convincing of his is according to true Dhamma, and because of this convincing which is in accordance with true Dhamma, he does not exalt just himself, he does not disparage others.

Indeed, before his bad morality is got rid of, good morality is set up. And this right view, right conception, right speech, this non-mocking of the ariyans, the convincing which is in accordance with true Dhamma, the non-exalting of self, the non-disparaging of others—these are a variety of good states that arise because of right view.

Hereupon, householders, an intelligent man reflects thus: ‘If there is a world beyond, this worthy individual at the breaking up of the body after dying will arise in a good bourn, a heaven world. But if it be granted that there is not a world beyond, if this is a true speech of these recluses and Brahmans, then this worthy individual is praised here and now by intelligent persons who say: ‘Of good moral habit is the individual, of right view, he holds the theory of “There is.” But if there is indeed a world beyond, thus is there victory in two ways for this worthy individual: inasmuch as he is praised here and now by intelligent persons, and inasmuch as at the breaking up of the body after dying he will uprise in a good bourn, a heaven world. Thus this sure Dhamma has been undertaken perfectly by him, he has applied himself two-sidedly, he is neglecting the unskilled stance.

There is no Evil

There are, householders, some recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and are of these views: ‘From doing, from making (another) do, from mutilating, from making (another) mutilate, from threatening, from making (another) threaten, from causing grief, from tormenting, from torturing, from making (another) torture, from making onslaught on creatures, from taking what is not given, from house-breaking, from plundering, from robbery, from waiting in ambush, from going after other men's wives, from lying speech—from acting (thus) evil is not done. If anyone with a discus having an edge sharp as a razor, should make the creatures of this earth into one mass of flesh, into one heap of flesh, from that source there is not evil, there is not the perpetuating of evil. And if anyone should go to the south bank of the Ganges slaying and striking, mutilating, making (others) mutilate, threatening, making (others) threaten, from that source there is not evil, there is not the perpetuating of evil. And if he should go to the north bank of the Ganges giving, making (others) give, offering, making (others) offer, from that source there is not merit, there is not the perpetuating of merit. There is no merit from giving, from taming oneself, from restraining oneself, from truth-speaking, there is not the perpetuating of merit.’

There is Evil

Householders, some recluses and Brahmans speak in direct opposition to these recluses and Brahmans, they speak thus: ‘From doing, from making (another) do… from lying… from acting (thus) evil is done. If anyone with a discus having an edge sharp as a razor should make the creatures of this earth into one heap of flesh, one mass of flesh, from that source there is evil, there is the perpetuating of evil. And if anyone should go to the south bank of the Ganges slaying and striking… from that source there is evil, there is the perpetuating of evil. And if he should go to the north bank of the Ganges giving, making (others) give… from that source there is merit, there is the perpetuating of merit. There is merit from giving, from taming oneself, from restraining oneself, from truth-speaking, there is the perpetuating of merit.’

What do you think about this, householders? Do not these recluses and Brahmans speak in direct opposition to one another?” “Yes, revered sir.”

“Hereupon, householders, of those recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and hold these views: ‘From doing, from making (another) do… there is not the perpetuating of merit,’ this is to be expected for them: Having laid aside these three good things: right conduct of body, right conduct of speech, right conduct of thought, and taking up these three bad things: wrong conduct of body, wrong conduct of speech, wrong conduct of thought, they practise them.

What is the reason for this? It is that these worthy recluses and Brahmans do not see the peril in wrong things, the vanity, the defilement, nor the advantage, allied to purity, of renouncing them for the good things. And because there is indeed effective action, the view of anyone that there is not effective action is a false view of his. As there is indeed effective action, if anyone has the conception that here is not effective action it is a false conception of his. As there is indeed effective action, if anyone utters the speech: ‘There is not effective action,’ it is a false speech of his. As there is indeed effective action, if anyone says there is not effective action he is making a mock of those perfected ones who profess effective action. As there is indeed effective action, if he convinces others that there is not effective action, that convincing of his is against true Dhamma, and because of that convincing which is against true Dhamma, he is exalting himself and disparaging others.

Indeed, before his good morality is got rid of, bad morality is set up. And this false view, false conception, false speech, the mocking of the ariyans, the convincing which is against true Dhamma, the exalting of oneself, the disparaging of others—these are a variety of evil, wrong states that arise because of false view.

Hereupon, householders, an intelligent man reflects thus: ‘If there is not effective action, this worthy individual at the breaking up of the body will make himself safe; but if there is effective action, this worthy individual at the breaking up of the body after dying will arise in a sorrowful way, a bad bourn, the downfall, Niraya Hell. But if it be granted that there is not effective action, if this is a true speech of these worthy recluses and Brahmans, then the worthy individual is condemned here and now by intelligent persons who say: “Of bad moral habit is the individual, of false view, he professes ineffective action.” But if there is indeed effective action, there is thus defeat in two ways for this worthy individual: inasmuch as he is condemned here and now by intelligent persons, and inasmuch as at the breaking up of the body after dying he will uprise in a sorrowful way, a bad bourn, the downfall, Niraya Hell. This sure Dhamma has thus been undertaken imperfectly by him, he has applied himself one-sidedly, he is neglecting the skilled stance.

Hereupon, householders, those recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and hold these views: ‘From doing, from making (another) do… there is the perpetuation of merit,’ this is to be expected for them: Having laid aside these three bad things: wrong conduct of body, wrong conduct of speech, wrong conduct of thought, and taking up these three good things: right conduct of body, right conduct of speech, right conduct of thought, they practise them.

What is the reason for this? It is that these worthy recluses and Brahmans see the peril in wrong things, the vanity, the defilement, and the advantage, allied to purity, of renouncing them for states that are good. And because there is indeed effective action, the view of anyone that there is effective action is a right view of his. And as there is indeed effective action, if anyone has the conception that there is effective action, it is a right conception of his. And as there is indeed effective action, if anyone utters the speech: ‘There is effective action,’ it is a right speech of his. And as there is indeed effective action, if anyone says that there is effective action, he is not making a mock of those perfected ones who hold the theory of effective action. As there is indeed effective action, if he convinces others that there is effective action, that convincing of his is according to true Dhamma, and because of this convincing which is in accordance with true Dhamma, he is not exalting himself, he is not disparaging others. Indeed before his bad morality is got rid of, good morality is set up. And this right view, right conception, right speech, the non-mocking of the ariyans, the convincing which is in accordance with true Dhamma, the non-exalting of self, the non-disparagement of others—these are a variety of good states which arise because of right view.

Hereupon, householders, an intelligent man reflects thus: ‘If there is effective action, this worthy individual at the breaking up of the body after dying will arise in a good bourn, a heaven world. But if it be granted that there is not effective action, if this is a true speech of these worthy recluses and Brahmans, then this worthy individual is raised here and now by intelligent persons who say: ‘Of good moral habit is the individual, of right view, he professes effective action. If there is indeed effective action, thus is there victory in two ways for this worthy individual: inasmuch as he is praised here and now by intelligent persons, and inasmuch as at the breaking up of the body after dying he will uprise in a good bourn, in a heaven world. Thus this sure Dhamma has been undertaken perfectly by him, he has applied himself two-sidedly, he is neglecting the unskilled stance.

With and Without Cause for Defilement or Purification

There are, householders, some recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and are of these views: ‘There is no cause, no reason for the defilement of creatures, creatures are defiled without cause, without reason. There is no cause, no reason for the purification of creatures, creatures are purified without cause, without reason. There is not strength, there is not energy, there is not human vigour, there is not human effort; all creatures, all breathing things, all beings, all living things are without power, without strength, without energy, bent by fate, chance, and nature, they experience pleasure and pain amid the six classes.’ But, householders, there are some recluses and Brahmans who speak in direct opposition to these recluses and Brahmans, and who say this: ‘There is cause, there is reason for the defilement of creatures, creatures are defiled with cause, with reason. There is cause, there is reason for the purification of creatures, creatures are purified with cause, with reason. There is strength, there is energy, there is human vigour, there is human effort; all creatures, all breathing things, all beings, all living things are not (so) without power, without strength, without energy that they are bent by fate, chance and nature, that they experience pleasure and pain amid the six classes.

What do you think about this, householders? Do not these recluses and Brahmans speak in direct opposition to one another?” “Yes, revered sir.”

“Hereupon, householders, those recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and are of these views: ‘There is no cause, there is no reason… amid the six classes,’ this is to be expected for them: Having laid aside the three good things: right conduct of body, right conduct of speech, right conduct of thought, and taking up these three bad things: wrong conduct of body, wrong conduct of speech, wrong conduct of thought, they practise them.

What is the reason for this? It is that these worthy recluses and Brahmans do not see the peril in wrong things, the vanity, the defilement, nor the advantage, allied to purity, in renouncing them for the good things. And because there is indeed cause, the view of anyone that there is not cause is a false view of his. As there is indeed cause, if anyone has the conception that there is not cause it is a false conception of his. As there is indeed cause, if anyone utters the speech: ‘There is not cause,’ it is a false speech of his. As there is indeed cause, if anyone says there is not cause, he makes mock of those perfected ones who profess that there is cause. As there is indeed cause, if he convinces others that there is not cause, this convincing of his is against true Dhamma, and because of this convincing which is against true Dhamma, he is exalting himself and disparaging others.

Indeed, before his good morality is got rid of, bad morality is set up. And this false view, false conception, false speech, the mocking of the ariyans, the convincing which is against true Dhamma, the exalting of oneself, the disparaging of others—these are a variety of evil, wrong states that arise thus because of false view.

Hereupon, householders, an intelligent man reflects thus: ‘If there is not cause, this worthy individual at the breaking up of the body will make himself safe; but if there is cause, this worthy individual at the breaking up of the body after dying will arise in a sorrowful way, a bad bourn, the downfall, Niraya Hell. But if it be granted that there is not cause, if this is a true speech of these recluses and Brahmans, then this worthy individual is condemned here and now by intelligent persons who say: “Of bad moral habit is the individual, of false view, he professes that there is not cause.” But if there is indeed cause, thus there is defeat in two ways for this worthy individual: inasmuch as he is condemned here and now by intelligent persons, and inasmuch as on the breaking up of the body after dying he will arise in a sorrowful way, a bad bourn, the downfall, Niraya Hell. This sure Dhamma has thus been imperfectly undertaken by him, he has applied himself one-sidedly, he is neglecting the skilled stance.

Hereupon, householders, those recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and are of these views: ‘There is cause, there is reason… amid the six classes,’ this is to be expected for them: Having laid aside these three bad things: wrong conduct of body, wrong conduct of speech, wrong conduct of thought, and taking up these three good things: right conduct of body, right conduct of speech, right conduct of thought, they practise them.

What is the reason for this? It is that these worthy recluses and Brahmans see the peril in wrong things, the vanity, the defilement, the advantage, allied to purity, of renouncing them for good states. And because there is indeed cause, the view of anyone that there is cause is a right view of his. As there is indeed cause, if anyone has the conception that there is cause it is a right conception of his. As there is indeed cause, if anyone utters the speech: ‘There is cause,’ it is a right speech of his. As there is indeed cause, if anyone says that there is cause, he does not make mock of those perfected ones who hold the theory of cause. As there is indeed cause, if he convinces others that there is cause, this convincing of his is in accordance with true Dhamma, and because of this convincing which is in accordance with true Dhamma, he does not exalt himself, does not disparage others.

Indeed, before his bad morality is got rid of, good morality is set up. And this right view, right conception, right speech, the non-mocking of the ariyans, the convincing which is in accordance with true Dhamma, the non-exalting of self, the non-disparaging of others—these are a variety of good states that arise because of right view.

Hereupon, householders, an intelligent man reflects thus: ‘If there is indeed cause, this worthy individual at the breaking up of the body after dying will arise in a good bourn, a heaven world. But if it be granted that there is not cause, if this is a true speech of these worthy recluses and Brahmans, then this worthy individual is praised here and now by intelligent persons who say: ‘Of good moral habit is the individual, of right view, he professes that there is cause.’ If there is indeed cause, thus is there victory in two ways for this worthy individual: inasmuch as he is praised here and now by intelligent persons, and inasmuch as on the breaking up of the body after dying he will arise in a good bourn, a heaven world. Thus this sure Dhamma has been undertaken perfectly by him, he has applied himself two-sidedly, he is neglecting the unskilled stance.

With and Without Formlessness

There are, householders, some recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and are of this view: ‘There is not formlessness throughout.’ But, householders, there are some recluses and Brahmans who are in direct opposition to these recluses and Brahmans, and who say this: ‘There is formlessness throughout.’

What do you think about this, householders? Do not these recluses and Brahmans speak in direct opposition to one another?” “Yes, revered sir.”

“Hereupon, householders, an intelligent man reflects thus: ‘Those worthy recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and are of this view: “There is not formlessness throughout”—this is not seen by me. And those worthy recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and are of this view: “There is formlessness throughout”—this is not known by me. And if I, not knowing, not seeing, were to take up one side and define it, saying: “This is the truth, all else is falsehood,” this would not be suitable in me.

If this is a true saying of these worthy recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and are of this view: “There is not formlessness throughout,” then this situation occurs that surely my uprising will be there where are those devas that have form and are made by mind. But if this is a true saying of those worthy recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and are of this view: “There is formlessness throughout,” then this situation occurs that surely my uprising will be there where are those devas that are formless, made from perceiving.

Concerning what has form, taking up the stick is to be seen, and taking up the sword, quarrel, dispute, contention, strife, slander, lying speech. But there is not this in what is formless throughout.’ So, by reflecting thus, he is one faring along precisely for the disregard of material shapes, for detachment (concerning them) and for their stopping.

Can and Cannot stop Becomings

There are, householders, some recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and are of this view: ‘There is not the stopping of becomings throughout.’ But, householders, there are some recluses and Brahmans who speak in direct opposition to those recluses and Brahmans and who say this: ‘There is the stopping of becomings throughout.’

What do you think about this, householders? Do not these recluses and Brahmans speak in direct opposition to one another? “Yes, revered sir.”

“Hereupon, householders, an intelligent man reflects thus: ‘Those worthy recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and are of this view: “There is not the stopping of becomings throughout”—this is not seen by me. But those worthy recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and are of this view: “There is the stopping of becomings throughout”—this is not known by me. And if I, not knowing, not seeing, were to take up one side and define it, saying: “This is the truth, all else is falsehood”—this would not be suitable in me.

If this is a true saying of those worthy recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and are of this view: “There is not the stopping of becomings throughout,” then this situation occurs that surely my uprising will be there where are those devas who are formless, made from perceiving. But if this is a true saying of those worthy recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and are of this view: “There is the stopping of becomings throughout,” then this situation occurs: that I will attain nibbāna here-now.

If this is a true saying of those worthy recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and are of this view: “There is not the stopping of becomings throughout,” this view of theirs is close to attachment, close to the fetters, close to delight, close to cleaving, close to grasping. But if this is a true saying of those worthy recluses and Brahmans who speak thus and are of this view: “There is the stopping of becomings throughout,” this view of theirs is close to detachment, close to the absence of the fetters, close to the absence of delight, close to the absence of cleaving, close to the absence of grasping.’ Through reflecting thus he is one faring along precisely for the disregard of becomings, for detachment (concerning them), and for their stopping.

Four Kinds of Persons

Householders, there are these four kinds of persons existing in the world. What four? Here, householders, some person is a tormentor of self, intent on the practice of self-torment. Here, householders, some person is a tormentor of others, intent on the practice of tormenting others. Here, householders, some person is both a self-tormentor, intent on the practice of tormenting self, and a tormentor of others, intent on the practice of tormenting others. Here, householders, some person is neither a self-tormentor intent on the practice of self-torment, nor a tormentor of others, intent on the practice of tormenting others. He, neither a self-tormentor nor a tormentor of others, is here-now allayed, quenched, become cool, an experiencer of bliss that lives with self Brahmā-become. [1] And which, householders, is the self-tormentor, intent on the practice of self-torment? In this case, householders, some person comes to be unclothed, flouting life's decencies, licking his hands (after meals)… (as in the Kandarakasutta)… Thus in many a way does he live intent on the practice of mortifying and tormenting his body. Householders, this person is called a self-tormentor, intent on the practice of self-torment. [2] And which, householders, is the tormentor of others, intent on the practice of tormenting others? In this case, householders, some person is a cattle-butcher, or pig-killer, fowler… or one of those others who follow a bloody calling. This is the person, householders, who is called a tormentor of others, intent on the practice of tormenting others. [3] And which, householders, is the person who is a self-tormentor, intent on the practice of self-torment, and also a tormentor of others, intent on the practice of tormenting others? In this case, householders, some person is a noble anointed king or a very rich Brahman… Those who are called his slaves or messengers or workpeople, they, scared of danger, with tearful faces and crying, set about their preparations. This, householders, is called the person who is a self-tormentor, intent on the practice of self-torment and also a tormentor of others, intent on the practice of tormenting others. [4] And which, householders, is the person who is neither a self-tormentor intent on the practice of self-torment, nor a tormentor of others intent on the practice of tormenting others, and who, neither a self-tormentor nor a tormentor of others, is here-now allayed, quenched, become cool, an experiencer of bliss that lives with self Brahmā-become? In this case, householders, a Tathagata arises in the world… Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the Brahmā-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so. This, householders, is called the person who is neither a self-tormentor, not intent on the practice of tormenting self, nor a tormentor of others, not intent on the practice of tormenting others, and who, neither a self-tormentor nor a tormentor of others, is here-now allayed, quenched, become cool, an experiencer of bliss that lives with self Brahmā-become.”

When this had been said, the Brahman householders of Sālā spoke thus to the Lord: “Excellent, good Gotama; good Gotama, it is excellent. It is as if, good Gotama, one might set upright what had been upset… even so in many a figure has Dhamma been made clear by the good Gotama. We are going to the revered Gotama for refuge and to Dhamma and to the Order of monks. May the good Gotama accept us as lay-disciples going for refuge from this day forth for as long as life lasts.”

Discourse on the Sure: The Tenth