On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Savatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anathapiṇḍika’s Park. Now on that occasion the bhikkhunī Khema, while wandering on tour among the Kosalans, had taken up residence in Toraṇavatthu between Savatthī and Saketa. Then King Pasenadi of Kosala, while travelling from Saketa to Savatthī, took up residence for one night in Toraṇavatthu between Saketa and Savatthī. Then King Pasenadi of Kosala addressed a man thus: “Go, good man, and find out whether there is any ascetic or brahmin in Toraṇavatthu whom I could visit today.”

“Yes, sire,” the man replied, but though he traversed the whole of Toraṇavatthu he did not see any ascetic or brahmin there whom King Pasenadi could visit. The man did see, however, the bhikkhunī Khema resident in Toraṇavatthu, so he approached King Pasenadi and said to him:

“Sire, there is no ascetic or brahmin in Toraṇavatthu whom your majesty could visit. But, sire, there is the bhikkhunī named Khema, a disciple of the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. Now a good report concerning this revered lady has spread about thus: ‘She is wise, competent, intelligent, learned, a splendid speaker, ingenious.’ Let your majesty visit her.”

Then King Pasenadi of Kosala approached the bhikkhunī Khema, paid homage to her, sat down to one side, and said to her:

“How is it, revered lady, does the Tathagata exist after death?”

“Great king, the Blessed One has not declared this: ‘The Tathagata exists after death.’”

“Then, revered lady, does the Tathagata not exist after death?”

“Great king, the Blessed One has not declared this either: ‘The Tathagata does not exist after death.’”

“How is it then, revered lady, does the Tathagata both exist and not exist after death?”

“Great king, the Blessed One has not declared this: ‘The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death.’”

“Then, revered lady, does the Tathagata neither exist nor not exist after death?”

“Great king, the Blessed One has not declared this either: ‘The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’”

“How is this, revered lady? When asked, ‘How is it, revered lady, does the Tathagata exist after death?’ … And when asked, ‘Then, revered lady, does the Tathagata neither exist nor not exist after death?’—in each case you say: ‘Great king, the Blessed One has not declared this.’ What now, revered lady, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Blessed One?”

“Well then, great king, I will question you about this same matter. Answer as you see fit. What do you think, great king? Do you have an accountant or calculator or mathematician who can count the grains of sand in the river Ganges thus: ‘There are so many grains of sand,’ or ‘There are so many hundreds of grains of sand,’ or ‘There are so many thousands of grains of sand,’ or ‘There are so many hundreds of thousands of grains of sand’?”

“No, revered lady.”

“Then, great king, do you have an accountant or calculator or mathematician who can count the water in the great ocean thus: ‘There are so many gallons of water,’ or ‘There are so many hundreds of gallons of water,’ or ‘There are so many thousands of gallons of water,’ or ‘There are so many hundreds of thousands of gallons of water’?”

“No, revered lady. For what reason? Because the great ocean is deep, immeasurable, hard to fathom.”

“So too, great king, that form by which one describing the Tathagata might describe him has been abandoned by the Tathagata, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so that it is no more subject to future arising. The Tathagata, great king, is liberated from reckoning in terms of form; he is deep, immeasurable, hard to fathom like the great ocean. ‘The Tathagata exists after death’ does not apply; ‘the Tathagata does not exist after death’ does not apply; ‘the Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death’ does not apply; ‘the Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death’ does not apply.

“That feeling by which one describing the Tathagata might describe him … That perception by which one describing the Tathagata might describe him … Those volitional formations by which one describing the Tathagata might describe him … That consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata might describe him has been abandoned by the Tathagata, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so that it is no more subject to future arising. The Tathagata, great king, is liberated from reckoning in terms of consciousness; he is deep, immeasurable, hard to fathom like the great ocean. ‘The Tathagata exists after death’ does not apply; ‘the Tathagata does not exist after death’ does not apply; ‘the Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death’ does not apply; ‘the Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death’ does not apply.”

Then King Pasenadi of Kosala, having delighted and rejoiced in the bhikkhunī Khema’s statement, rose from his seat, paid homage to her, and departed, keeping her on his right.

Then, on a later occasion, King Pasenadi of Kosala approached the Blessed One. Having approached, he paid homage to the Blessed One, sat down to one side, and said to him:

“How is it, venerable sir, does the Tathagata exist after death?”

“Great king, I have not declared this: ‘The Tathagata exists after death.’”

All as above down to:

“Great king, I have not declared this either: ‘The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’”

“How is this, venerable sir? When asked, ‘How is it, venerable sir, does the Tathagata exist after death?’ … And when asked, ‘Then, venerable sir, does the Tathagata neither exist nor not exist after death?’—in each case you say: ‘Great king, I have not declared this.’ What now, venerable sir, is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Blessed One?”

“Well then, great king, I will question you about this same matter. Answer as you see fit. What do you think, great king? Do you have an accountant or calculator or mathematician … all as above down to: … The Tathagata, great king, is liberated from reckoning in terms of consciousness: he is deep, immeasurable, hard to fathom like the great ocean. ‘The Tathagata exists after death’ does not apply; ‘the Tathagata does not exist after death’ does not apply; ‘the Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death’ does not apply; ‘the Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death’ does not apply.”

“It is wonderful, venerable sir! It is amazing, venerable sir! How the meaning and the phrasing of both teacher and disciple coincide and agree with each other and do not diverge, that is, in regard to the chief matter. On one occasion, venerable sir, I approached the bhikkhunī Khema and asked her about this matter. The revered lady explained this matter to me in exactly the same terms and phrases that the Blessed One used. It is wonderful, venerable sir! It is amazing, venerable sir! How the meaning and the phrasing of both teacher and disciple coincide and agree with each other and do not diverge, that is, in regard to the chief matter. Now, venerable sir, we must go. We are busy and have much to do.”

“Then, great king, you may go at your own convenience.”

Then King Pasenadi of Kosala, having delighted and rejoiced in the Blessed One’s statement, rose from his seat, paid homage to him, and departed, keeping him on his right.